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в ответ wittness 14.03.08 16:17, Последний раз изменено 14.03.08 23:32 (OnkelArtus)
In Antwort auf:
In Antwort Schloss 14/3/08 14:54
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В ответ на:Вынужден согласиться с Олмендом в части поддержки Гитлера ну не поголовного, но подавляющим большинством немцев.
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Ну так и я об том же - была полная поддержка и понимание, как говорится совет да любовь.
In Antwort Schloss 14/3/08 14:54
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В ответ на:Вынужден согласиться с Олмендом в части поддержки Гитлера ну не поголовного, но подавляющим большинством немцев.
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Ну так и я об том же - была полная поддержка и понимание, как говорится совет да любовь.
Так смотря в чем поддержали! Если бы у Вас после десятилетий унижения и нищеты вдруг появился бы свет в конце туннеля, то и Вы бы его поддержали, будь Вы немцем. Если бы Ваш доход повысился бы, то Вы не сильно бы интересовались его планами.
Но вот его военные авантюры и расовую политику поддерживали далеко не все.
In Antwort auf:
There remained, however, a substantial base for opposition to Hitler’s regime. Although the Nazi Party had taken control of the German state, it had not completely destroyed and rebuilt the state apparatus in the way the Bolshevik regime had done in the Soviet Union. Institutions such as the Foreign Office, the intelligence services and, above all, the Army, retained some measure of independence, while outwardly submitting to the new regime. The independence of the Army was eroded in 1938, when both the Defence Minister, General Werner von Blomberg, and the Army Chief, General Werner von Fritsch were removed from office, but an informal network of officers critical of the Nazi regime remained.
...
Resistance in the Army 1938-42
Despite the removal of Blomberg and Fritsch, the Army retained considerable independence, and senior officers were able to discuss their political views in private fairly freely. In May 1938 the Army leadership was made aware of Hitler’s intention of invading Czechoslovakia, even at the risk of war with Britain, France and/or the Soviet Union. The Army Chief of Staff, General Ludwig Beck, regarded this as not only immoral but reckless, since he believed that Germany would lose such a war. Oster and Beck sent emissaries to Paris and London to advise the British and French to resist Hitler’s demands, and thereby strengthen the hand of Hitler’s opponents in the Army. Weizsäcker also sent private messages to London urging resistance. The British and French did not know what to make of these messages and ignored them.
In August Beck spoke openly at a meeting of Army Generals in Berlin about his opposition to a war with the western powers over Czechoslovakia. When Hitler was informed of this, he demanded and received Beck’s resignation. Beck was highly respected in the Army and his removal shocked the officer corps. His successor as Chief of Staff, Franz Halder, remained in touch with him, and was also in touch with Oster. Privately, he said that he considered Hitler “the incarnation of evil.”[4] During September, plans for a move against Hitler were formulated, involving Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben, the Army commander of the Berlin Military Region and thus well-placed to stage a coup.
Oster, Gisevius and Schacht urged Halder and Beck to stage an immediate coup against Hitler, but the Army officers argued that they could only mobilize support among the officer corps for such a step if Hitler made overt moves towards war. Halder nevertheless asked Oster to draw up plans for a coup. Weizsäcker and Canaris were made aware of these plans. The conspirators disagreed on what to do about Hitler in the event of a successful Army coup – eventually most overcame their scruples and agreed that he must be killed if the majority of Army officers were to be freed from their oath of loyalty. It was agreed that Halder would instigate the coup when Hitler committed an overt step towards war.
Remarkably, the Army commander, General Walther von Brauchitsch, was well aware of the coup preparations. He told Halder he could not condone such an act, but he did not inform Hitler, to whom he was outwardly subservient, of what he knew.[5] This was a striking example of the code of silent solidarity among senior German Army officers, which was to survive and provide a shield for the resistance groups down to, and in many cases beyond, the crisis of July 1944.
On 13 September, the British Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain, announced that he would visit Germany to meet Hitler and defuse the crisis over Czechoslovakia. This threw the conspirators into uncertainty. When, on 20 September, it appeared that the negotiations had broken down and that Chamberlain would resist Hitler’s demands, the coup preparations were revived and finalised. All that was required was the signal from Halder.
On 28 September, however, Chamberlain backed down and agreed to a meeting in Munich, at which he accepted the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. This plunged the resistance into demoralisation and division. Halder said he would no longer support a coup. The other conspirators were bitterly critical of Chamberlain, but were powerless to act. This was the nearest approach to a successful conspiracy against Hitler before the 20 July plot of 1944.
As war again grew more likely in mid 1939, the plans for a pre-emptive coup were revived. Oster was still in contact with Halder and Witzleben, although Witzleben had been transferred to Frankfurt am Main, reducing his ability to lead a coup attempt. At a meeting with Goerdeler, Witzleben agreed to form a network of Army commanders willing to take part to prevent a war against the western powers. But the level of support in the officer corps for a coup had dropped sharply since 1938. Most officers, particularly those from Prussian landowning backgrounds, were strongly anti-Polish and saw a war to regain Danzig and other lost eastern territories as justified.
This nevertheless marked an important turning point. In 1938 the plan had been for the Army as a whole, led by Halder and if possible Brauchitsch, to depose Hitler. Now it was recognised that this was not possible, and a conspiratorial organisation was to be formed in the Army and civil service instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Resistance
There remained, however, a substantial base for opposition to Hitler’s regime. Although the Nazi Party had taken control of the German state, it had not completely destroyed and rebuilt the state apparatus in the way the Bolshevik regime had done in the Soviet Union. Institutions such as the Foreign Office, the intelligence services and, above all, the Army, retained some measure of independence, while outwardly submitting to the new regime. The independence of the Army was eroded in 1938, when both the Defence Minister, General Werner von Blomberg, and the Army Chief, General Werner von Fritsch were removed from office, but an informal network of officers critical of the Nazi regime remained.
...
Resistance in the Army 1938-42
Despite the removal of Blomberg and Fritsch, the Army retained considerable independence, and senior officers were able to discuss their political views in private fairly freely. In May 1938 the Army leadership was made aware of Hitler’s intention of invading Czechoslovakia, even at the risk of war with Britain, France and/or the Soviet Union. The Army Chief of Staff, General Ludwig Beck, regarded this as not only immoral but reckless, since he believed that Germany would lose such a war. Oster and Beck sent emissaries to Paris and London to advise the British and French to resist Hitler’s demands, and thereby strengthen the hand of Hitler’s opponents in the Army. Weizsäcker also sent private messages to London urging resistance. The British and French did not know what to make of these messages and ignored them.
In August Beck spoke openly at a meeting of Army Generals in Berlin about his opposition to a war with the western powers over Czechoslovakia. When Hitler was informed of this, he demanded and received Beck’s resignation. Beck was highly respected in the Army and his removal shocked the officer corps. His successor as Chief of Staff, Franz Halder, remained in touch with him, and was also in touch with Oster. Privately, he said that he considered Hitler “the incarnation of evil.”[4] During September, plans for a move against Hitler were formulated, involving Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben, the Army commander of the Berlin Military Region and thus well-placed to stage a coup.
Oster, Gisevius and Schacht urged Halder and Beck to stage an immediate coup against Hitler, but the Army officers argued that they could only mobilize support among the officer corps for such a step if Hitler made overt moves towards war. Halder nevertheless asked Oster to draw up plans for a coup. Weizsäcker and Canaris were made aware of these plans. The conspirators disagreed on what to do about Hitler in the event of a successful Army coup – eventually most overcame their scruples and agreed that he must be killed if the majority of Army officers were to be freed from their oath of loyalty. It was agreed that Halder would instigate the coup when Hitler committed an overt step towards war.
Remarkably, the Army commander, General Walther von Brauchitsch, was well aware of the coup preparations. He told Halder he could not condone such an act, but he did not inform Hitler, to whom he was outwardly subservient, of what he knew.[5] This was a striking example of the code of silent solidarity among senior German Army officers, which was to survive and provide a shield for the resistance groups down to, and in many cases beyond, the crisis of July 1944.
On 13 September, the British Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain, announced that he would visit Germany to meet Hitler and defuse the crisis over Czechoslovakia. This threw the conspirators into uncertainty. When, on 20 September, it appeared that the negotiations had broken down and that Chamberlain would resist Hitler’s demands, the coup preparations were revived and finalised. All that was required was the signal from Halder.
On 28 September, however, Chamberlain backed down and agreed to a meeting in Munich, at which he accepted the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. This plunged the resistance into demoralisation and division. Halder said he would no longer support a coup. The other conspirators were bitterly critical of Chamberlain, but were powerless to act. This was the nearest approach to a successful conspiracy against Hitler before the 20 July plot of 1944.
As war again grew more likely in mid 1939, the plans for a pre-emptive coup were revived. Oster was still in contact with Halder and Witzleben, although Witzleben had been transferred to Frankfurt am Main, reducing his ability to lead a coup attempt. At a meeting with Goerdeler, Witzleben agreed to form a network of Army commanders willing to take part to prevent a war against the western powers. But the level of support in the officer corps for a coup had dropped sharply since 1938. Most officers, particularly those from Prussian landowning backgrounds, were strongly anti-Polish and saw a war to regain Danzig and other lost eastern territories as justified.
This nevertheless marked an important turning point. In 1938 the plan had been for the Army as a whole, led by Halder and if possible Brauchitsch, to depose Hitler. Now it was recognised that this was not possible, and a conspiratorial organisation was to be formed in the Army and civil service instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Resistance
Как видим, в Германии имелось достаточно мужественных людей, которые не хотели идти на поводу у Гитлера.
Если бы Чемберлен в 1938 году поддержал бы не Гитлера, а Халдера, то войны удалось бы избежать. Но Англии нужна была война между Германией и СССР, и Англии удалось столкнуть Сталина и Гитлера.
In Antwort auf:
Что Эренбург и заметил: говорим Фюрер, подразумеваем - партию, говорим
нацисты подразумеваем подавляюшее большинство поддержавших их немцев..
Что Эренбург и заметил: говорим Фюрер, подразумеваем - партию, говорим
нацисты подразумеваем подавляюшее большинство поддержавших их немцев..
Странно, что Эренбург не заметил, что он сам является представителем преступного и лживого большевистского режима, в котором все, и в первую очередь он сам, без мыла лезли в одно место великому Вождю. Большевистский режим к тому времени уже успел совершить намного больше преступлений, чем в 30-х годах все нацисты вместе взятые.
Эренбургу надо было бороться с большевизмом, и у немцев не появилась бы необходимость поддерживать нацистов, а у Англии не появилась бы необходимость натравить Гитлера на Сталина...
“...du wirst saugen die Milch der Nationen...”(Jesaja 60-16)http://bibeltext.com/isaiah/60-16.htm